PA Open Records Challenge: The Bad
Oct 4th, 2007 by dani_k
As promised, here are a few of the hands-on stories we’ve received that would qualify as bad. As always, these are in the participants’ own words.
One student received the runaround…literally.
I was assigned to find out if I could access the contract of a county executive of Clinton County. I found out that there is currently no county executive for Clinton County. I first went over to the Garden Building in downtown Lock Haven. They told me that I should go over to the Courthouse and talk to them. So, I went over to the Courthouse and they had no idea what I was talking about. They told me to go back over to the Garden Building and talk to somebody on the Commissions floor. They told me I should talk to a lady by the name of Kathy Conrad. So, I went back over to the Garden Building and they told me exactly where to go. When I got up to the third floor, the lady I needed to talk to was in a meeting. As I was about to leave, the man at the desk by the front door of the Garden Building called up to one of the secretaries of the Commissions floor. I went up to talk to her and she was the one that informed me that there is currently not county executive. So,
I asked her that if there was a county executive, would I be able to access the contract of that county executive. She was unsure so she asked a man that also worked up on the Commissions floor. He informed me that I can due to the Pennsylvania state laws on accessing open records. They both told me that I would just need to fill out a form requesting access to the open records that I would want to see. So, the process for me to find out if I could access the contract of the county executive was a little difficult at first, but in the end I found what I was looking for.
So to the County’s credit, she did find out what she was looking for - but not before she was ping-ponged between 5 offices. Not so great.
A geneology buff, Dennis Gries, contacted us to share his frustration with PA public records:
As a genealogy researcher, I find that the availability of records is highly erratic about the state.
The “state” death index is not available. Certainly the Dept of Health could take whatever indices are presently in place, and place them into one database, and make the total index since 1908/15 available on the web. It would show full names, date and county of death (muni. would be nice too), and possibly age or date of birth. This would vastly aid researchers, and eliminate a lot of the death certificate requests. The death certificate is a state mandated record, and the maintenance of the records makes them state records, and subject to the records laws. The index would maintain any privacy (assuming death people have privacy).
Turning to the counties: marriage records are generally available, although I recently encountered issues in Montgomery - county databases were not allowed to me, and continuing issues in Philadelphia - access is delayed and restricted.
Estate records, so far, have not been an issue.
However, divorce records, which are a court record, are restricted in some, i.e. Montgomery (not even an index is available) and Philadelphia (at least the index is). These are mandated records in that to achieve the divorce, a record is required.
The State Commission, or whatever, needs to review these issues.
As Dennis’ story shows, the issue of what is and what is not a public record varies widely depending on which of our 67 counties and 2,566 municipalities you are requesting information from. Two of our Open Records Challenge Participants illustrate that point beautifully. They were both looking for county gun records - and received two different answers.
My assignment was to look for the Lycoming County gun records for 2006. So, I went to the Lycoming County Courthouse in search for the Sheriff’s office. Once I located the office, I announced my name to the secretary and asked if I could have the gun records for Lycoming County in 2006. She said that this office didn’t have that information to release, and I would have to contact the office in Harrisburg in order to get the documents of that nature. She also said that the office can’t release that type of information to people off the street. I politely said that these documents are under the open records policy. She said even if she had the records, she wouldn’t give them to me; because they weren’t suppose to. I politely said thank you and left.
On September 21st I went to the local court house in Sunbury, PA [Northumberland County] to see if I could obtain county gun records for 2006 with the names of people who purchased guns. The lady that helped me was not the friendliest person, but from previous experience with the secretaries that work there, it came as no surprise.
The lady asked me what she could help me with and I then asked to see the county gun records for 2006. The only request that the lady made after I asked for the records was to see some form of identification, so I gave her my PA driver’s license. After she looked at the license she went to go find them for me. She then took me to a room where I could sit down and look at them, so I did for a few minutes and then returned them to her.
So what happens now? Are the agencies that are denying access to records going receive some sort of training, or have to pay fines, or have ANY kind of consequence for failing to follow the letter/spirit of the law? It’s frustrating to see so many examples of open records laws being ignored with no repercussions.
I represent the County Commissioner Association of Pennsylvania. The responders show the difficulties counties themselves have in meeting the requirements of current law, and why our testimony on the subject has indicated support for clarification (see our web site, http://www.pacounties.org and click on government relations / testimony). Where the requester was asking for a county executive contract, we are prohibited from asking reasons for the request, so could not narrow down the search. The office does not exist in most counties, but there are several county staff that might have a similar titles, for example Children and Youth Director or Court Administrator. So with little to go on the requester unfortunately gets routed to other places.
The genealogy researcher runs into the problem we have in balancing individual privacy with public access. Although death records are state records, a separate statute (not open records law) prohibits disclosure except to close relatives, presumably in the name of protecting privacy.
The court records requester rightly points out the disparate policies among counties, and in fact there are disparate policies within counties since each row office is independently elected, and has relative independence in developing records retention and search capabilities. We’d support mechanisms to help create better uniformity and are working with the statewide Administrative Office of Pennsyvlania Courts in this respect.
Last, the sheriffs do background checks on gun licenses as a responsibility under state law so there is some open question whether the records are the state’s or the county’s. Law requires the owner, not custodian, of the records to determine how they are to be made available and again this example highlights a need to develop statutory and policy consistency.
I agree with Dennis Gries on vital records, only I wouldn’t stop at an index. Some friends and I have already started a lobbying campaign to have open access to Pennsylvania death records. Our proposal is to have a system similar to what they have done in West Virginia. It allows on-line access to death certificates of persons who died at least 50 years ago and were born at least 100 years ago. This eliminates the problems of identity theft. There has to be a point at which it is reasonable to say enough time has elapsed that privacy is no longer an issue either for the deceased or their immediate family.
I would like to get in contact with Dennis and any others who are interested in this particular issue. The name we have taken is People for Better Access to Pennsylvania Historical Records.
I applaude the beginning for the efforts in open records reform (That was sarcasm).
I know first hand that the issue is trampling on our Contitutional Rights.
I paid for records in a State and Federal Habeas Case. I recieved a letter stating to pick up the records. When I arrived. No records. I was told to wait for a letter in the mail.
Under the Right to Know Law, I requested the Records in Pennsylvania. Well so much for the LAW, My RIGHT TO KNOW was DENIED. I guess you do NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW…EVEN IF YOU HAVE PAID!
I have YET to get my money and had to involve the DOJ CHIEF of FOI Office to tell me the RECORDS did Not exists in the First Place! But…. I am still out of my money and STILL Do NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED….AT LEAST IN PENNSYLVANIA!
Will this reform Work???
Not unless you change those who are supposed to ENFORCE IT!
This is a JOKE! NEXT!